tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post9176103332046694145..comments2024-03-21T05:39:38.636-04:00Comments on Tango Therapist: Tango Psychopaths?Tango Therapisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12548118004604256736noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-89188027419436081862014-04-28T16:07:25.428-04:002014-04-28T16:07:25.428-04:00Interesting post.
The problem, as I see it, is t...Interesting post. <br /><br />The problem, as I see it, is that while not being professionally skilled at spotting the 'vultures' one risks to shun good dancer and generous person. It's like trying to diagnose an illness by reading a list of symptoms instead of consulting a doctor. One can easily get hypochondriac. <br /><br />So as you suggest the responsibility should be on the community not on the newcomer. They have more opportunities to judge what sort of tango bird they are dealing with. <br /><br />Another problem is that the community would become really protective about a newcomer only when he/she is no longer a newcomer.<br /><br />Besides, which is probably not to the point, in tango it is unavoidable that there are people deeply hurt in their expectations. My experience is that no cruel or selfish intent of another dancer must lie beyond these wounds. So some will live tango others will stay.<br /><br />The above is not to undermine anything that has been written in the post. It is only to show the other side of the problem which some comments hint at.Annahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10430217400627661990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-975197363454607202012-11-14T21:33:12.217-05:002012-11-14T21:33:12.217-05:00I experienced this several months ago and still ha...I experienced this several months ago and still have not recovered. I was going through hell and din't understand it until I searched and found this post. I will never return to tango. I have a web page warning others, with links to your site: tangodoll.com<br /><br />Gisellehttp://tangodoll.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-47009466951091304772011-09-12T21:00:19.973-04:002011-09-12T21:00:19.973-04:00Tangodimension: My next blog will address the imp...Tangodimension: My next blog will address the importance of women protecting women. If you have a mission, perhaps going back will be less shameful. So here is your mission in two parts: (1) Go back for yourself (see Re-finding your Tango Haven, the article before Tango Vultures). (2) Go back to start a movement of women who will protect each other in that community -- protection through Tango Etiquette and sisterly advice (not gossip). Tango vultures maintain themselves on the hope that the community will stand back and watch and do nothing. With a mission both for yourself and others, you can go re-find your Safe Place. If you have questions you can find my email address under "About me" on my blog (on the right side).Tango Therapisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12548118004604256736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-36640677301956232462011-09-12T05:11:42.081-04:002011-09-12T05:11:42.081-04:00Hello, thank you a thousand times for the article ...Hello, <br>thank you a thousand times for the article about the tango vultures. I started tango one year ago. And fell in love with the one of my tango community. I was so new, I didn't understand anything. And little by little I just went through all the steps you mention. My problem now is gossip, and many men won't danse with me. It's been one month now I stopped dancing. I don't dare to go. I live in a remote area, I wanted to change my tango community. But it's too far from my place. How should I gain the affection of my tango sisters again and gain the arms of the tangeros? What should I tell them? I do agree on the vulture having his own faithful net which spread gossip. He has all these characters you mentionned around him. I want to break the silence around me, and fill the empty spaces around me. Is it an inner spontaneous feeling, or is it real ? I don't know.tangodimensionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-79248438639119645212011-09-10T12:05:26.709-04:002011-09-10T12:05:26.709-04:00@ Stephen: I am pretty sure, Stephen, that you wou...@ Stephen: I am pretty sure, Stephen, that you would approach this subject quite differently as a father. Let's say your daughter was born when you were 31 and now your are 52. You are elated that your daughter is sharing your love for tango at her college. Someone has slipped an article on "Tango Vultures" into her shoe bag. It bothers her because it makes her wonder about her new tango boyfriend. He is 45, a great dancer and just-for-fun teacher. She knows that he has had several affairs in the last few months, and the young ladies all disappeared from the tango scene. It didn't work out to be the fairy tale as they had hoped. They were all adult, as is your daughter is -- a mere 24 years in age difference from her tango boyfriend. Stephen, my guess is that your fatherly advise would take a different direction than what you have suggested to us. Many men and women have written to me via email, confirming very toxic individuals harming their community. Read the book I suggested. My guess is that you may be more protective of women in your life after reading it, not out of your paranoia but out of a new knowledge base and genuine concern.Tango Therapisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12548118004604256736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-13514765093643943572011-09-09T21:20:59.386-04:002011-09-09T21:20:59.386-04:00We are talking about adults here aren't we? So...We are talking about adults here aren't we? Some of this tends to verge on paranoia and perhaps, between the lines, sour grapes. <br><br>A seduction happens, instigated by male or female, in the dance scene. Everything works out, they get married, have kids and dance happily ever after. A fairytale romance come true. Same scenario. It doesn't work out. Feelings are hurt all around. Somebody gets branded a Tango Vulture. <br><br>Sexually active adults indulge in seduction, of each other, in social settings. Being new to a dance or to a social group doesn't make a child of an adult. Most of us can take care of ourselves.Stephen Manionhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00247802472245037199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-81031584234318237052011-09-08T01:26:09.363-04:002011-09-08T01:26:09.363-04:00@Traveling DancerI cannot share your experience wi...@Traveling Dancer<br>I cannot share your experience with woman (so far). In fact I think there is another typical pitfall for woman: gossip (the real bad one). In some cases I've observed that and it could be as harmful as the behavior of the male tango vulture.<br>I've read Clay's article and I think he is right. But we have to be careful not to focus only on negative behavior. At least in my opinion supporting good traditions and manners in any community is more effective than putting the finger in the wounds.cassielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09358837599599618837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-16449471613171892112011-09-07T16:53:48.227-04:002011-09-07T16:53:48.227-04:00First let me say that you are rather brave to put ...First let me say that you are rather brave to put this out there and it is part of the dark side of tango which nobody wishes to speak of.<br>I have encountered such people, these vultures, and have done my best to push them out of my community as I saw what they were up to.<br>Being a 'tango vulture' need not be just of a sexual predatory nature though. People with ulterior motives masked in 'the love of tango' are in every community. These people can be seen as leaders to some and community destroyers to others. I do not know why this happens. It makes me sad. Tango has all of life in it, the good and the bad.<br>Thanks for your post, Mark.tangocorazonhttp://tangocorazon.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-53067366516167071932011-09-07T16:47:17.807-04:002011-09-07T16:47:17.807-04:00Cassiel: I hope that a few people will identify e...Cassiel: I hope that a few people will identify especially the Tango Vulture who systematically is hurting individuals and the community at large! What a sad thing when that person is a teacher. Traveling Dancer has pointed out that the Tango Vulture can be a woman. I hope to hear from more men and women on this. Please read Clay Nelson's full article -- it is really quite insightful. He gave me the strength to talk about this unpleasant subject. Danke Schön für deine Kommentare. Ich habe ein Post-Idea über Tango in Deutschland, die ich bald schreiben will. Bis bald! -- MarkTango Therapisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12548118004604256736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-16012749927815714262011-09-07T16:38:30.692-04:002011-09-07T16:38:30.692-04:00@Traveling Dancer: You have some good points! I ...@Traveling Dancer: You have some good points! I have limited myself to male vultures. Female lions kill and so do male lions. Vultures can be female or male too. No surprises here. I deal with the effects of female predators with my therapy clients constantly. Many male predators were created by early experiences with sexual abuse from adult females, who if reported often will not even be taken seriously. Many of my female colleagues close their eyes to this because they believe in the Bad Man Model. So I appreciate your words. However, please do not believe that psychopathy is mostly a male problem. Just because experts and society are blind to it, does not erase the great facts of female psychopathy, which is often aided by anti-male legislation (my experience in Europe). You go way beyond my experience to blame tangueras on a higher rate of predatory behavior. I sincerely would be honored for you to contact me via email so that I could better understand what you have experienced after so many years as a teacher and DJ in regards to your insights on female tango vultures. I am facinated. I have yet seen a new tanguero give up on tango because of an early sexual affair with a good tanguera. But perhaps I am missing something. Finally, please do not assert that the indicators I present are not valid without presenting at least a few to replace them. I worked with forensic psychiatrist who is also a tanguera on this article. Are you really sure that I missed pointing out what a Tango Vulture is? Also, I have received private emails that say that I have described the very man who had his talons in them.Tango Therapisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12548118004604256736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-65386910841819534162011-09-07T05:50:21.349-04:002011-09-07T05:50:21.349-04:00Even sometimes it is difficult to distinct between...Even sometimes it is difficult to distinct between a <i>vulture</i> and a <i>nerd</i>, your article is important since: <i>"The usual victim cannot complain to the community. She has no voice. She simply disappears out of shame or no longer sees her Safe Place as being tango. The new person is soon gone after the affair is over [...]"</i>. You are absolutely right!<br><br>I have observed the same situation several times and in one case it was a <a href="http://tangoplauderei.blogspot.com/2010/05/tangueros-zum-abgewohnen-v-kasimir-der.html" rel="nofollow">local tango-teacher</a> acting in this way (in the meantime he destroyed the local community successfully).cassielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09358837599599618837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8035244062520832583.post-80545105847491680702011-09-07T00:14:31.106-04:002011-09-07T00:14:31.106-04:00To counter the traditional gender-stereotyping whi...To counter the traditional gender-stereotyping which permeates your post let me add that in my experience (with many years of dancing tango and active involvement in building a number of tango communities both in the US and in Europe) I've encountered more female "tango vultures" than male "tango vultures" who manage to become acceptable dancers and persist in the community. Pride, a widespread culture of not speaking up about sexual abuse, and a widespread taboo on complaining about such experiences among males, accompanied by the fact that they are the ones who are, at least according to appearances, have the lion's share in making partner choices (which is mostly true when the majority of non-psychopathic females are concerned), is quite instrumental of hiding this fact, but the psychological abuse perpetrated by female dances can be every bit as hard if not more than the usually more apparent advances of their male counterparts. Female psychopaths (at least according to Robert D. Hare) are somewhat more rare than male psychopaths in the general population, but I'm pretty sure that in the tango population it is the converse.<br><br>However both of them are quite rare and none of the "signs" you mention above is evidence for a person to be one of them.traveling dancernoreply@blogger.com